Hello everyone. We are here to point out the latest trends in Overland lies, half-truths and misstatements. This week's trend goes to those who want to blame MBC (and MBC alone) for their personal property tax rates.
Enough with blaming MBC for Overland's personal property tax rates! The council vote went down 5-2, so she was just one of five in that arena. In reality, we the voters of Overland have voted what the maximum levy rate will be. (Something about "when you point a finger, three more are pointing back at you" seems fitting here.) The council cannot work outside those parameters that the voters have put in place.
If you are going to blame MBC for the personal property tax rates then you must also credit her for lowering of the levy for real property. You really can't have it both ways.It's almost reminiscent of ORTian logic. Then again, some of these folks have bitten from the poison apple of Schneider promises. Speaking of which, why are they not blaming Schneider for this? After all, it was one of the first things passed during his administration?
Enough with blaming MBC for Overland's personal property tax rates! The council vote went down 5-2, so she was just one of five in that arena. In reality, we the voters of Overland have voted what the maximum levy rate will be. (Something about "when you point a finger, three more are pointing back at you" seems fitting here.) The council cannot work outside those parameters that the voters have put in place.
If you are going to blame MBC for the personal property tax rates then you must also credit her for lowering of the levy for real property. You really can't have it both ways.It's almost reminiscent of ORTian logic. Then again, some of these folks have bitten from the poison apple of Schneider promises. Speaking of which, why are they not blaming Schneider for this? After all, it was one of the first things passed during his administration?
27 comments:
I posted this on the old blog, too
It seems to me that the same people who complain about this personal property tax thing are the same folks who complained about no trash, no swimming pool, no ______ (fill in service of your choice).
They are also the same ones who need basic math books because they can't get it through their thick heads that lower real estate taxes > $0.022 increase in personal property taxes.
(Hint: > = "greater than")
Those city services you crave must be paid for someway. DO THE MATH!
Flying under the radar is where I prefer to be. The Munsch Pep talk was probably more like the plea for voting for Les Dills.
Frank's making promises to Kenny for his and Keller's vote for Les. Plain and simple, Schneider's knows Les is DOA so he called his go to boy Frank Munsch for persuasion.
Now Kenny could have agreed to a deal based on Franks pitch or his belief/assurance that Frank is going to help him .
I think Kenny knows the wagons and vultures are circling him. You suppose Kenny will let bygones be bygones and appoint the guy who protested Ann every single day?
Or do you think Kenny and Keller think ward 4 deserves exactly what ward 3 had for a year? No representation.
My suspicion if Kenny follows the advise of Frank he'll be squealing like Ned Beaty in the movie Deliverance.
Kenny is COGG's only target in April. Will he turn the other cheek and appoint Les or will he continue to show Ward 3 that he is/has and always will fighting for the residents of his ward.
It all depends if Kenny realizes he's being played like a fiddle.
Nice new look here SuzyJax.
One day, hopefully before I qualify for social security, I will have a new OE site open for business.
good job suzyjax, as usual.
Good job suzyjax, as usual.
What services are you talking about ort? The police dept. is all we have left. 5 council people just committed political suicide at the last meeting and you know it. The only benefactor out of the last meeting was the Ritenour School district and that will be basically nothing for them but dollars for the citizens of Overland to pay. I've never seen such stupidity in all my life. Excuse me but Conlon never rolled anything back she wasn't even on the council last year. The state auditor sets these figures and Overland has been dumb enough to over pay for years. Personal property tax on vehicles should be dropped period. Only a few states have this tax and Missouri is one of the stupid states that has this tax. Do your research before you post. The dept. of revenue is barely holding their head above water, they just don't want to shut the dept. down because they don't want to put people out of work. Research it, you'll find out I'm right.
I'l tyep real sllooowww so maybe you will understand this time.
Yes, there are many taxing entities involved with our personal ppty tax. Not only Ritenour (or U City depending on where you live) but also the Fire District, the Zoo, etc.
Overland does NOT have the power to affect their tax rates. The Overland portion of the bill (about 2.6% of the entire bill) goes to the city of Overland. THIS IS THE PORTION THAT WAS VOTED.
Overland taxes do not go to Ritenour or the others.
The State Auditor does not set the figure, we-- the voters--determine the levy amounts.
The State Auditor can provide guidelines regarding real estate tax valuations and rates. That is REAL property since it tends to go up (whereas personal ppty tends to go down).
You show us your research on how the dept of revenue is out of funds. Why should I do the work to back up your claims?
Especially in consideration of how WRONG you are on everything else in your post!!!!
Dear backwards, I agree with you 100 percent. As we all discussed Saturday afternoon. You can't fix stupid. This site is run by a blazing idiot. My granddaughter, who is 9 can understand this. Don't waste your time on Ward 2, now you see why Conlon lowered the salaries of the council people (NO COMPETITION) only way she can retain her seat. I see Beck and Linda, they do delete comments they don't want to hear.
Personal Property taxes should NOT be dropped in Missouri period.
Having lived in a state where there is no personal property taxes I can tell you that if you are a homeowner, the lack of pp taxes COSTS you money.
The reality is that regardless of what is taxed, the same amount of money is needed by the State, County, Fire district, school district, city, etc. Personal property taxes spread that expense across a much broader pool of people, which means we all pay less. Without personal property taxes only property owners, as in home owners, would pay for all the services. Eliminating personal property taxes would require a massive real property tax increase.
Considering the fact that renters still need police protection, fire protection, schools, courts, etc I think it is only fair that they, through personal property taxes, help pay for the costs of those services as well.
On the other issues SuzyJax is right, the city can ONLY make changes to their small portion of the taxes we pay. For renters, this change in the property taxes will be an increase that averages $1.00 (yes that is one dollar) a year or so. For homeowners, combining the changes to both the pp taxes and the real property taxes will result in a $4.00-5.00 a year DECREASE.
This has already been explained a host of times on the net. This causes me to wonder whats the motive behind your continued spreading of this false propaganda?
Amazing and the only two who voted not to decrease their own pay were Ann Purzner and Owensbey. Oh and Conlon proposed the reduction in the Mayor to 12,000 from 18,000. I'm glad she did both who in their right mind thinks it's okay to pay the city of Overland's council people 700.00 a month.
Oh yes! The Almight, All Powerful Conlon. The Ever Present Conlon who is responsible for all things that happen on the council!
I really wonder why the other council people bother to show up since AMAP MBC decides everything!!
If you think this is remotely true, you should be calling your council member and ask them why they are just sitting by!
If backwards and unbelievable were truly all fired up about their personal property taxes, they would be asking why Jeri Schneider--despite everything her husband incurred on his taxes, including having his waiver revoked--hasn't stepped up to the plate to pay taxes on her T-Bird!!!!
You might pay less if the rich and powerful actually paid theirs!
What exactly is a "blazing idiot" anyway? Who is writing that bullshit, is it Fetch again?
That guy is like a bad cold. You just can't get rid of it.
What is his infatuation with Conlon? It is different than Sweaty being Owensby's top groupie. What is next?
Mary Beth Conlon is a member of the Literati.....Knights Templar... definitely a Mason I would guess. Life Time member of Brandenburg Commission and she flies black helicopters to work.
Tedious tedious human that Fetch.
Having difficulty figuring out those complicated tax rates?
ORT Public Relations is proud to announce a book signing at 7 PM Wednesday evening at the Mandarin House.
"She has a profound knowledge of the tax code."
-- Peter J. Fallert, I.R.S. Commissioner
Having difficulty figuring out those complicated tax rates?
ORT Public Relations is proud to announce a book signing at 7 PM Wednesday evening at the Mandarin House.
"She has a profound knowledge of the tax code."
-- Peter J. Fallert, I.R.S. Commissioner
Having difficulty figuring out those complicated tax rates?
ORT Public Relations is proud to announce a book signing at 7 PM Wednesday evening at the Mandarin House.
"She has a profound knowledge of the tax code."
-- Peter J. Fallert, I.R.S. Commissioner
"I highly recommend this book. She learned everything she knows from me."
-- Overland Councilman Ken Owensby
I called my council people, neither have returned my calls. I live in Ward 2. I have been here over 30 years. I am very upset, my husband is putting our home up for sale. My hubby owns over 30 vehicles, he is a collector of cars, a very talented man, and yes our storage of these is very expensive. We are moving to Illinois where they don't have personal property taxes on vehicles. I will miss my friends here in Overland. My husband and I disagree with you Sailor the taxes on homes are very similar in Illinois.
Rebecca,
Don't let the door hit you on the way out!
Only a fool uses this reasoning. This levy amount was voted upon by the voters and, if you actually knew this you would be aware that it might hit your "30 classic cars".
Good luck in Illinois! But, really if this was your issue Florida or Texas may be your spot, no personal property taxes and warmer.
Oh yes, let's get rid of the personal property taxes so Rebecca and her hubby can stay!
I say we do this if you sell half those cars and give the entire proceeds to the Ritenour School District.
Rebecca,
You are so full of shit. You lie about as good as Carol Sparks. How much in personal property tax did you pay on the "thirty cars" last year? Name five of your thirty cars.
I run with the antique car crowd and I have two observations. The first is that NOBODY NOBODY NOBODY I know values their antique car at above the minimum $100.00. St. Louis County does not attempt to assign a value to an antique car therefore the $100.00 minimum. Which works-out to about $9.00 per vehicle for a total of $270.00 per year on your thirty imaginary antique automobiles.
You store the cars in a thirty-car garage somewhere or in multiple garages? The amount in real property taxes to store the vehicles would far exceed the personal property taxes.
Oh, You rent space you say? Try to figure how much you would need to pay monthly to store the vehicles in rental properties, probably a bit higher than the minimum personal property tax.
You store the cars outside. That is called a junk yard not a classic car collection.
Rebbeca First, if you own 30 vehicles than yes, it is possible (though not likely) that it would be cheaper for you to live in Illinois assuming you are talking about cars with documented high values, not subject the the historical exemptions, etc.
However, the recent tax levy change has nothing to do with that. As I have said before, this personal property tax "increase" only effects the the municipal portion of your property tax bill. The average increase would be $1.00 (yes that says ONE DOLLAR) per car at the worst. So, are you honestly suggesting you're going take on the expense of moving, finding a new place to store 30 vehicles, etc to avoid an addition 30.00 (or less) a year?!?!?
If so than before you act I STRONGLY recommend that you familiarize yourself with this concept.
As previously stated,St. Louis County does not mark personal property to market. Nor does St. Louis County use private or public assessors to derive the value of personal property for taxation.
Therefore, documenting estimates of a vehicle's market value is of no use to St. Louis County Personal Property Tax Assessors.
The assessed value of personal property is derived by taking the original purchase price and depreciating annually.
As a consequence antique and classic automobiles are assessed at $100.00 minimum regardless of condition because the property is fully depreciated by time it becomes an antique.
Doesn't matter if the vehicle is a 1925 Dusenberg, 1936 Airflow, 1949 Plymouth, 1955 Speedster, 1964 Impala SS, 1967 Charger or 1974 Imperial Le baron: $100.00 assessed value regardless of condition. The property is fully depreciated.
Cost-benefit analysis is intuitively pleasing but fails to provide a framework for rational social choice or individual decision-making.
Cost-benefit analysis was spawned from the Austrian or Utilitarian School of Economics during the 19th Century and achieved its broadest use during the Scientific Management movement of the early 2oth Century.
Cost benefit analysis was a central tool in the hand of Progressives as they embraced the futile effort of removing politics from administration.
Increased use of cost/benefit analysis only served to highlight its inadequacy as a method for making sound policy decisions. By the end of the 1930s, cost-benefit analysis was widely discredited as a comprehensive decision making method.
Due to its intuitively pleasing nature, cost-benefit analysis continues to be one among many decision-making methods in our "tool-box" but is never thought of credible solution by serious scholars of research methods.
As much as cost benefit analysis' supporters tout its efficacy, reality cannot be made "black or white".
The following URL contains a really good Policy Analysis bibliography. I would start at the top to learn more on Cost Benefit Analysis and the history of Public Policy Administration.
http://www.psk.org.vt.edu/psk/polcybks.htm
I think we are getting confused here. Real Estate (Real property) is marked to market.
As Gravy correctly stated, Personal property is NOT.
My reference to Rebbeca using a cost benefit analysis approach to her concerns was simply an attempt to suggest that she take the time to analyze this problem as she would surely find that the costs of a move would far outweigh the meager property tax savings aka benefit.
However, while I don't think CBAs are the end all solution for all things, that line of thinking tends to be an excellent place to start when considering policy decisions.
Often people become so engrossed in their personal pet issues they stop thinking about the problems and solutions logically or in any depth. When issue-based tunnel vision occurs policy efforts that do more harm than good are likely to follow.
For example, while pollution is not loved by anyone policy makers have to find a balance between efforts to reduce it and the impact those efforts could have on the economy. Legislators could mandate zero emissions, but the increase in manufacturing costs to achieve this would likely result in some goods being priced out of reach of the average consumer as well as the closing of who knows how many plants. While we can argue that cleaner air saves lives, poverty has a huge impact on people's health and life expectancy as well.
Finding that sweet spot where you accomplish as much of your goal as you can without creating equal or greater negative impacts in other areas is the hardest part of policy administration (made worse by political gamesmanship and the like).
Please note, this not an attempt to start a clean air debate, that was just the first example that came to mind.
I'm sorry for referencing two-hundred years of scholarship on the subject when I should be talking out my ass.
Given costs-benefit analysis as a discipline is about 200 years old, the decision-making process is not a secret. In fact it is about as well known form of analysis that exists. These facts beg the question. If cost-benefit analysis is an effective method to make political decisions, why is it so rarely used? A more important question would be in relation to political institutions. If rational policy analysis such as cost-benefit could provide answers to policy questions or disagreement, why do we have democratic political institutions?
In order to perform cost/benefit analysis, one must be able to accurately quantify their forecasts of costs and benefits through a constant meter.
For example, accurately forecasting the actual costs of pollution is a discipline unto itself wrought with disagreement. It is also the case that most goods can be characterized as a cost or a benefit simultaneously. That paradox exists within every policy area thus rendering rational policy analysis logically impossible.
There is nothing within the discipline of cost benefit analysis that can be used as decision rules. The only way to solve these issues is through politics.
Hell, why am I even bothering with an explanation.
Deborah Stone's work is particularly illustrative.
Stone, Deborah. Policy Paradox and Political Reason
Stone, Deborah. Policy Paradox and the Art of Political Decision Making
Administration is politics.
Politics is administration.
Administration is politics.
Politics is administration.
Administration is politics.
Politics is administration.
It is IMPOSSIBLE to separate politics from administration.
It is IMPOSSIBLE to separate politics from administration.
It is IMPOSSIBLE to separate politics from administration.
Pick-up any any ANY public policy administration text whether undergrad, grad or post-grad and you will find the politics - administration dichotomy thoroughly discussed within the first few chapters.
You will not find a single public policy administration scholar or anyone who has a cursory knowledge of the discipline for that matter that would argue for the possibility of separating politics from administration and otherwise.
The main reason why finding the policy "sweet spot" is the hardest part of public policy administration is not because of "political gamesmanship", it is because the hypothetical sweet spot DOESN'T EXIST.
You would be just as likely to find Atlantis, Bigfoot, the Fountain of Youth or the Sorcerer's Stone as you will find your rational policy sweet spot.
But why let two hundred years of scholarship get in the way when another helping of utopianism is available.
See Reform Movements in Perspective:
http://crawford.osu.edu/cd/cd/myweb2/
transforming_leadership.htm
The Politics-Administration Dichotomy Model as Aberration, James H. Svara, PAR 58(1):51-58 (1998).
John Stuart Mill’s Theory of Bureaucracy within Representative Government: Balancing Competence and Participation, Beth E. Warner, PAR 61(4):403-411.
The Study of Administration, Woodrow Wilson
Excellent Description found at the following cite.
http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/
gi_0199-4388562/Neutral-competence
-and-political-responsiveness.html
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